Everyday Magic

An Interview with Karli Petrovic

This is an unedited transcript:


 I am here with Karli Petrovic. She is the CEO and founder of cup of sugar. How great is that mean? It does not have to do with baking. It has to do with magic. And she’s all about helping I love this everyday people and bring everyday magic. Welcome. Thank you. So good to be here. So what what is magic mean to you? Oh, that’s a great question.


I think that when I first started thinking about magic, it took on a little bit different meaning than what it does for me now. You know, I kind of envisioned it the way like the media envisions that or like, you know, the way you see movies like the craft or practical magic. And what I’ve kind of come to realize through some of my trainings with yoga and just with various teachers is that it’s kind of everywhere, right. And like, it can be as simple as you know, noticing that you’re getting a lot of messages or seeing a lot of crows around like I’ve had that happen. So, you know, I’ll be walking around and for like, weeks at a time, it’s like, I’ll see crows everywhere. Like they’re trying to tell me something, or as simple as you know, just knowing that something is going to happen before it happens, just having like that general sense and tapping into your intuition. So I think that magic is just kind of the ways that we connect to ourselves and the world at large and one another, and just putting that kind of focus on noticing what what’s going on, you know, so that we can tap them a little bit deeper.


Yeah. Sounds like a deeper level of noticing or knowing things in your everyday life. Yeah, absolutely.



It’s like, once you start kind of paying attention, it’s this idea that like magic is actually all around us. And there are tools to kind of tap into it. But like, it’s there, whether we want to notice it or not. You know,



I actually I just, I was just teaching a class earlier today. And here’s how I define magic. I was walking this planet that is, in the context of the classroom teaching was this power over our own thoughts, habits, and a future. That’s not something that we have that power within us is like our magic.



Yeah, yeah. I love that,



too. That’s so powerful. Because it really is something that comes within us, right? Like even this magic that we notice all around us. It’s all because like, of that connection, and like ownership of who we are. That allows us to kind of be there.



Yeah. Yeah. And it really it can really be we can we can observe it or thinking externally. And internally. I mean, ultimately, I think it comes from within us, but it’s also around us. Yeah. That’s great. That’s cool. I feel like we together we have a really, really well rounded idea of magic. Yeah, so how is it because I, you know, like you said, there’s a lot of societal ideas around what is magic and it’s sort of this fluffy thing that isn’t real, you know? So how is it that you came to embrace magic when you have not just like, buy into that story?



Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like for the longest time in my life, I was waiting for like, my magical powers to come to me, right. Like, one day, I was able to just like, move things with my mind and it was gonna be me. And yeah, like, just like, it was gonna come to me and then all of a sudden, I was gonna be able to like, you know, I like one of the my favorite scenes in practical magic is when she’s writing this letter. And she’s also like, just stirring her tea with like, the tea is stirring itself basically. And I thought that would definitely happen to me at least for like, my 16th birthday. And then like my 21st birthday, and then my 30 and, you know, and then it just like, one day going through, you know, a training with one of my teachers and things there was just like this awakening moment of being like, oh, The actual magic is within me. Like I have the ability to do magical things. And yeah, there’s some of those like, kind of supernatural things that we think about. But really the everyday magic is just being able to connect with the people that you’re talking to, and have both people walk away feeling really amazing, right? Or like, kind of, for me, it’s a lot of tarot reading, so being able to see things about people or their circumstances or the questions that they ask, simply by being able to tap into this universal consciousness that we all have. So I think about, you know, connecting with our own intuition. And then when we want to connect with other people connecting to the kind of overall Universal Consciousness where all of our intuitions kind of connect. And so it’s just this idea of, Oh, yeah, I can do that on my own right, I don’t need these supernatural forces, or these, you know, this, like woowoo magic to take place. It’s like, it’s all there. I just need to know how to use it for myself, and how to kind of be aware of what it is.



I love this idea of like a collective intuition that we can tap into. So I know people have all kinds of words for that. I know, for some people like that is God, that’s the higher power. And some people feel like it’s a thing that’s really separate. And people feel like, really, it’s actually a really personal intimate thing or some blend of both. So yeah, I, when do you remember? Like, your earliest experience of like, whoa, I’m happiness?



Yeah, yeah. It’s funny that you asked



that, because I am. I always think of my first experience with magic as being kind of this supernatural thing, which is why I felt like, Oh, I can definitely move things with my mind if I just wait long enough, right? But it was I, I have this very distinct memory of being a child. And I used to have these like colorful foam balls that I would like play with. And then without telling anyone before, I would like leave the house and go to my grandparents house or something like that, go grocery shopping with my mom, I would hide them in different places and not tell anyone where they were. And then whenever I came back, they were in different places. And so it was this idea of like that, you know, for me, it’s like, oh, cool, you know, it’s like, almost like having this imaginary friend or this imaginary force. And then, you know, I distinctly remember one time telling my aunt about, like, the magic of it, right? And so like, we went somewhere to go get dinner and came back. And they were in different places. But I had this realization that she had moved to that, like it was, as soon as I told someone about it, right? Like, she didn’t want to, like break the childhood fantasy, right? Because in her mind, this is crazy. And so like, I just knew right away, it’s like, oh, something different has happened, the spell has been broken. But that’s



kind of my earliest memory of actually connecting with this idea of magic. And I think as the kids, right,



like, we often think about the fact that we’re much more tapped into these things, because anything is possible when you’re a kid. And then, you know, we go through life, and we feel maybe not necessarily like beat down by society, but it’s had a lot more impacts on us. And so we stopped believing that those things are possible. And then they stopped being possible. So there’s some connection there. But it’s like, the way that I connect with magic today isn’t in that way, right? It doesn’t feel like a supernatural force. It feels very natural and very accessible. But I’m thinking of My first memory like it was kind of fantastical, which is, which is like, on this path, I



guess. Yeah, I love that we are I mean, I think as as a society, and we’re, we’re in Western society I was speaking is very much like, we are very willing to cultivate magic within children. And then it’s sort of expected, like a certain age, like, not so much anymore, which makes sense in that the kind of magic as you pointed out, is the brand of magic evolved because we’re growing evolving. But this idea that like, yeah, we can’t, we can’t have those magical experiences anymore. Boo.



Oh, my God. I know and that’s, that’s kind of the funny thing, too.



It’s like, I like your reframe of the fact that we are growing and evolving. So our magic is growing and evolving. And, you know, I think That when I first started I was a lot of me was like, Okay, well, when can I get back to that like childhood magic? You know, how can I get back to that place? And I don’t know that it’s not accessible anymore, but it’s gonna be a lot harder to get back to a place like that. Given that, you know, I am not a child anymore, you know, like, I can’t necessarily see the world through the same eyes. And maybe it’s, you know, this changing of expectations to to say, like, okay, the magic feels different. And that’s not to say that you can’t have powerful magical experiences and adult, they just look a lot different, I think. And I think that you’re kind of reasoning and talking about the fact that we are changing, which is why our magic is changing is really helpful. Yeah,



yeah. Well, I mean, I think about that a lot. As a mom, like, when I, you know, just like, what my kids are ready for different things at different stages, to understand some things and, and I, you know, my hope is that as a parent, like, I’m inviting them into that next stage, rather than, like, clobbering them with it, you know, or making it like half they have to experience in a certain way or give up things weren’t enough. But I know there’s a lot of, you know, there’s a lot of advice out there like that there are things in childhood that we should keep. But I always look at those. I’m like, well, not everything. Like Have you been around a toddler, like I don’t actually want adults to act like toddlers. But the idea of like, awe and wonder and welcome magic into your life and in like noticing flowers, you know, like kids take hikes by like, looking at the little rocks and adults were like, We can’t wait to get to the big view. And so definitely, you know, taking that up making it frees me to stop and notice little things. And so I think there is like, a way in which bringing some of that childhood magic into their life is so good and important. And I imagine that, too, is a key element, just as I’m talking and having a thought about on the podcast, I’ve interviewed people where it’s been some magical experience that taken them on the best possible path for them. It’s like, okay, I mean, there’s always a story of some magic moment, something that doesn’t make rational sense. So can only do magic kind of a thing. So I’m wondering if that if that’s true for you? Yeah, absolutely,



I and over time, I’ve started to listen more to kind of guides that pop up from unexpected places. One of the things that I’ve realized in adulthood is that one of my aunts who was always kind of pushing me not to be a writer, which is what I am by trade and things like that, because of her pushing so hard for me to do something that felt so insane to me, right? Like I ended up on the path that I am partially because of like those things, too. So it’s not always like the positive experiences that are guiding us toward our path or the path that we’re on for a while. But sometimes it’s our reaction and like the triggering from like negative experiences to, and one of the things that my teacher has said often is that the universe is always conspiring for your highest good. So whether it’s bad experiences, whether it’s good experiences, it’s like, you know, you have the ant kind of going in every direction, and you’re putting your hand in different ways to get the app to kind of like, orient the way you want it out of your house, or wherever it is. It’s like that’s what happens. But the those people sometimes you know, and, and it doesn’t always


feel like magic, especially if it’s like something irritating or something that you really don’t like.



But in the end, it really gets magic because it got you where you need it to go. Or you know, you just had this call one day and you woke up and you did it like what’s not magical about that, you know, just a thought appearing in your head that changes your whole life. That’s pretty magical,



right? Yeah. That’s so interesting. How is it that then share a little bit about you’re a writer by train. So kind of how you got into that, and then how you have gotten out of that. Yeah.


So I was one of those weirdos that like knew she wanted to be a writer since she was six years old and like would write little stories and things like that. And I went to journalism school and then I was working for some magazines after that. And then I kind of transitioned to freelance writing, which is where I’ve been for a long time where I still kind of am like I do I do that still but and it always felt like writing for He was this almost magical gift, right? Like, I used to do interviews for stories I was gonna do and I’ve always been a procrastinator, so I will not write anything early, it will always be the case. No matter what, like, I’ll do all the prep work, they’ll do all the interviews. You know, any writers who are not procrastinating? I’m so curious. I’m sorry. You know, any writers who don’t procrastinate writing? You know, it’s not really. I don’t know that many writers. But I know for myself, I mean, a lot. There’s a lot of writing in business, too. And yeah, and I love writing as well and never done it, like, on its own professionally, but But absolutely, yeah, I would have even if it’s a deadline I created, I’ll wait. And that’s what I’m wondering. Anyway, fine. No, no, no, that’s totally, it’s funny, because I always think that I’m kind of, like, exclusive. And that because I don’t necessarily know a lot of writers, but like, the people that I do know, are, you know, for the most part, like, pushed him that stuff to the last minute, felt like, for me, that was always like, it worked, right? Like, my best work would always come from like, being under the gun. And like, I, you know, like I said, I would do all the prep work, I would be ready to write it. And then all of a sudden, I would, you know, take a nap or wake up that day, knowing that I had to do it for the next like, couple of hours. And it would just flow out of me naturally. And it felt like it was almost like, it wasn’t even coming from me, it was coming from somewhere. And I was just kind of channeling it, to kind of put it in those terms. But after a while, and I think this is probably a combination of just taking on too many projects and not charging enough money and not being respectful of that gift. It felt like it just kind of went away, like it had run its course, you know, or it just wasn’t flowing the way it used to. So that to me was one of those indicators from the universe, that it was time to change course and find something that wouldn’t make me feel like writing used to make me. And it’s not to say that I won’t go back or that I’m not going to continue to do it. Because there’s always going to be a part of me, but it just wasn’t a thing anymore. You know. And so that was that was kind of the transition. Yeah.



Yeah. You know, that’s incredible. I love that you sharing from when we’re very young age, you’re like, I’m going to be a writer, and then you became one. And it felt amazing. Until it didn’t. And I just, I just want to pause like, y’all listening like, No, you just because you get on the train doesn’t mean you have to stay on the train, even if you got on the train at age six. Right? Okay. I love that. Like, I just, I just felt like the freedom of that, just as you were sharing that, like, Oh, yeah, like, you know, it doesn’t actually has to be this lifelong commitment or looking this one way, like you said to I mean, being a writer is part of it’s like, it’s part of your identity, it doesn’t need to be your job, it doesn’t need to be the only way that you express your creativity and your natural. So. So cool. Yeah, yeah. And you probably



encounter this all the time when you’re working with clients, right? Like, you’ve created your whole identity or a big chunk of your identity around what you’re doing. And then it’s like, this existential crisis when like, it doesn’t feel as amazing as it used to. And then it’s like, oh,



who am I? No, no. No, we have to, we have to have anchors in our identity. We have to, you know, I know people that are like, Oh, I wish I could just feel free and I’m like, No, you would actually be insane. Like, we actually need to, we have to connect to something outside of ourselves to anchor in and identify ourselves now. What that is and allowing that to change and to shift and to actually reflect who we are now that’s another conversation but but we you know, it’s not everyday isn’t a free for all. Can you imagine you wake up every morning to like, breathe, decide things and refigure out everything like oh, wow, that’s completely unreasonable. Yeah, I mean, that becomes a medical condition. I think



there’s no container right there’s no container for anything that you want to create when you’re constantly rebuilding like that.



Yeah, yeah, we want to be free for like a little bit. We want like to be vacation period. And yeah,



exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it’s good enough to get to stuff. But also we need a foundation. So, so good, so now you are focused more on Tarot And Creating Magic and share more about that evolution with that place. Yeah, yeah,



so I have that I’ve had a tarot deck since high school. And I’ve always, it’s always just been an interest. I think, like, I used to drive my mom crazy as a child, because there was one store in the mall, called the Enchanted Forest, I think is what it was called. And it was like just all the woowoo stuff you can imagine. And my mom is not, not into magic. So she’s just like, this seems insane. You know, like, whatever, she wasn’t gonna like poopoo the idea but like, she just doesn’t get it right. So I always had it and I would play around with it and you know, reading through the booklets and things like that, and then kind of got disconnected from that deck a little bit like I always had it, but I wasn’t necessarily called to use it all the time. And then I kind of got back into my my love of Tarot, just kind of randomly, it was something that had been on my mind for a while. And that, so I started messing around with it again. And I would do like little readings for my friends, like, you know, pick a card kind of stuff and, and just kind of been then they started to come to me asking me for guidance, and some questions that they had and things like that. And so it kind of got, like a little bit of momentum behind it. And so it was like, Okay, well, maybe this is something that I can do for a while because it feels like people are asking for it, and that there’s a need for it, especially in COVID times when we all feel a little nuts and disconnected and like, unsure of where to go. If, you know, just seeing that people were interested was really cool for me. Because, you know, a lot of times when you’re in like a yoga space or things like that, like there’s interest in things like this, right? Like there’s more open mindedness about like, what I like to call like the woo art of like, Tarot and astrology and like, it’s not an necessarily like a name that will resonate with everyone, but like, that’s kind of how I see it, right, these serial things that like, bring us closer to understanding ourselves and others. But Taro has always been kind of a tool for me to be able to connect with those things. And I found like, you know, it feels weird to say like, Oh, I’m really good at Tarot, like, like, it’s a thing to be good at. But like, I found that the messages that I was receiving and sharing with people were really connected with them. And a lot of times connecting with people whom I wouldn’t describe as being spiritual people or in the spiritual space. And so I found that those were really my people, right? The people who were a little bit skeptical who are a little bit like, I don’t know, like, I don’t necessarily believe in Tarot, or whatever it is. And so I what I realized is like, I love connecting with people in that way. And so I’ve started doing, you know, personal readings and kind of helping people connect to those things. But my, my big push recently is to start doing kind of weddings and corporate events, and like, bringing those services to give people like, people who wouldn’t normally be exposed to these kinds of things, like giving them a little bit of a taste of it, like, Hey, this is out here. And like, I’m not the only one who can do it. You can do it too, you know, but just kind of exposing people to something that they may not have ever seen before.



Yeah. What? What do you what do you think, make someone look good at Tarot. And I said, like, anyone could be and it’s something that sounds like you’ve cultivated, or whatever, you know, like, if you’re going to go get a tarot reading.



It’ll say like, you have to get reading, if you’re the person that you’re reading for cries or there has like a very emotional reaction, which is usually a good thing, right? You’ve touched on a point that like, you know, has clearly been on their mind, or it’s clearly been bothering them. And sometimes people are like, I feel crazy, right? Like, I feel crazy thinking this and then the cards kind of confirm what they’ve been thinking, and kind of like opens up a whole door for people. But what I would say is that anyone can read Tarot. If you think about the cards as just being kind of a tool to connect with your own intuition.



You absolutely can



put that symbolism and the images that are very kind of intentionally cultivated for each card. And you can use that in your own life. Reading for other people is a little bit harder. It takes a lot more practice. But the the real thing that I think is that you have to be open to it and you have to really just connect your own kind of thoughts from the messages that you’re receiving. So you know, it’s not just having like an open mind to allow Things that kind of come to you. But it’s really having an open heart and being able to kind of pull yourself back from this isn’t me saying this, it shouldn’t be. If it’s, you’re saying that then you’re not really connecting to the cards, right? Because those messages are really from the universe. And all you’re doing is just reading for people, right? telling them what it says. So while I think that anyone can read Tarot, and with a lot with practice, anyone can be really good at Tarot, especially when reading for themselves or, you know, pulling daily, the thing that sets people apart or reading for other people is you’re answering the questions that people can’t answer on their own, because they can’t see them clearly. And you’re also kind of allowing yourself to be a channel and not everyone is necessarily open to that. Not everyone wants to be that right, you know, so I find that it’s kind of easier to deliver those tough messages, though, are those messages that people really need to hear when it’s not really coming from you? Because, you know, like, yeah, I pulled the cards, but you know, I have no connection to how this goes for you. You know, like, if you quit your job, or you don’t quit your job, I’m going to be fine. So I have no skin in this game, right. But like a lot of people, if they’re reading for the friends, right, it’s going to feel like you do have skin in the game. So that’s where that, you know, like a really good tarot reader is going to be able to pull themselves back from that and not give advice. Right. But to actually say, you know, this is what I’m seeing based on what’s coming up.



Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that. It’s like, there isn’t. It’s not like, there’s a lot of misconceptions around Taro less and less, more and more people are using that. But I’ve definitely heard this idea like, Oh, it’s, it might conflict with like, my religious or spiritual beliefs. And what I’m hearing you saying, other people in my life has done something similar. It’s really the self reflection tool, actually, right. It’s not something like, that comes with, like a bunch of religious war, or faith, or, you know, it’s an old tradition. But it is really designed set up to help you just gain a fresh perspective. It’s so hard, like, I like heard this analogy, some at some conference or something where like, Okay, if you put your finger on the tip of your nose, can you see your finger? Like, you think you can’t, you can kind of like, you know, you can’t really, so we need each other like we need someone else to, to do that. And what I’m hearing you say too, is that, that someone else then become this non judgmental? Not even really a person, right? Like not anybody who’s going to be involved in any decision or anything that comes through the cards. It’s like, it’s really just to help you be yourself and then tune into your own intuition, intuition about how it proceeds.



Yeah, absolutely. And it’s interesting that you, you talk about, like, the conflict with religion, right? or potential conflict, you know, people think of it as being conflicting. But one of the things I was thinking about recently is like, if you told people who kind of, you know, okay, so there are various names for like, I like to use the universe, right? Some people refer to God or their spirit guides, or whatever it is, but if you told people who believed in God, what if you could talk directly to God every day through using your tarot deck? I believe that that’s absolutely possible. Because what you’re doing right, you’re not asking, you know, know what, what you should do or what you should know, right? You’re asking the universe you’re asking God, you’re asking some sort of higher power, tapping into this universal consciousness or tapping into God right. And so it’s actually a means outside of you know, church or services or whatever it is to connect with that higher being or that higher energy and I think that if people saw Tarot that way, it would feel less like a kind of a barrier between you and your religion and more of a connector between you and what you believe and who you’re trying whom you know, ever or whatever you’re trying to connect with. And I think it can be a really powerful tool for people who do believe in God especially if you’re like okay, I’m asking God to help clarify investment right to tell me where I need to go I have a lot of questions. You know, some people do that through praying but you absolutely could do it



through Tarot to the same idea. Yeah, I love that. So not only not in conflict, but connection cancer connection to God that will just breathe or whatever form I love that I love that and i i’ve also just not go down too much of the rabbit hole of like concerned your own peril, but it comes up. One thing I’ve heard too is like, Well, how do you know Like, what if you’re channeling? Like some evil spirits, you know, if you’re, if you’re doing and, and I would I would imagine it’s like, I hope it was really capable. So if you just like, Who are you asking? What’s your intention of asking? Or the reader? Like? What is their intention and who they’re asking? And so that’s where you’re going to get your answer. So if you’re like, hey, God, then God’s gonna be the one answering. Yeah, yeah. And



like when I read for other people, right, we sometimes do this little exercise, because what I’m trying to do, and especially nowadays, where a lot of readings are virtual, right, where the energy exchange is not in the same space, but across space, I have this visualization where we’re both closing her eyes and breathing. And we both envision ourselves and bodies of light. And then our light is connecting, right? And so I almost see it as like a triangle, right? Like, the Universal Consciousness is up here, you and I is buddy, it’s a blade or down here, right? So then it’s we’re all kind of connecting in this way. And it’s almost like the cycle of connection. And so what I’m doing when I’m reading for you is I’m actually reading from your intuition, as well as like the universal consciousness, I’m trying to connect to both. And the reason why it’s so important to connect to someone else’s intuition is, a lot of times what you’re doing when you’re reading for them is giving them the insights that they already know, but can’t access because their mind is getting in the way. Right? So if I can tap directly directly into their intuition, as well as right, this overall intuition that we’re all a part of, then you can get a very clear message. Because you and I, and everyone has all the answers that we could ever need within us, right, but it’s the accessing meme that gets in the way. So what you’re doing when you go see a tarot reader, hopefully right is asking them to access those answers for you. And so it is interesting, because when you’re talking about, you know, who where is the energy coming from? Well, it’s partially coming from you. I’m partially coming from



everyone and everything. Yeah. Beautiful. Triangle light. Powerful. Yeah. Yeah. So um, I imagine like, having this tool as a centerpiece in and of itself is helpful. But I am curious about what has supported you in trusting your intuition around making this big career change that you made not that long ago. And if there’s any obstacle along the way that you have noticed, I imagine it hasn’t been like, the smoothest thing ever, to make a big leap like, so yeah, let’s, let’s like, put here the reality here. Magic is like sounds fun and everything. But I’m sure there’s a challenge. Let’s, let’s



get into it. So for the last probably year, plus, I’ve been on this journey of trusting my intuition, no matter what it says, sometimes there are no ways to prove what you think or what you Intuit. Right? is correct. So I just assume that everything that I Intuit is absolutely 100% correct. Because who cares if I take the extra long route to get to the store, because for some reason, I feel like I should write like, I might not be able to confirm that anything would have happened if I have gone the other way. But, you know, I got to the store, and I didn’t have a car accident. So maybe that was my intuition, or whatever, you know, and that’s just like a little example, you know, or like, when I’m connecting with someone, and I feel something really deeply about them. Like that just kind of comes to me snaps into my head. I’m like, that’s 100% accurate. And so it’s this idea that I got from some of my trainings, and some of my teachers that, you know, if you treat your intuition, like a friend, or think of your intuition, like a friend, you know, validating your friend when they try to tell you something, and then you know, if you find that you are kind of pulled one way, but you end up going a different way, and then something happens. And you realize, Oh, I should have listened to my intuition. I’ll literally apologize to my intuition like I would to a friend because if your friend keeps trying to tell you something and you don’t listen, your friends gonna stop telling you stuff. That’s good. That’s the problem. Like, not being a good friend. So like, I try to think about my intuition that way and just really trust no matter what And that doesn’t mean that my life is perfect or everything goes well or I’m like always right or whatever. But I find that that practice is really helpful because that trust is necessary to connect with Tarot and just to like, live my everyday life and connect with myself. So that’s kind of the practice I’ve been on. But I will say that once I started kind of my Tarot journey, which, when you first start something, right, it almost feels like, Oh, this is perfect. Everything is going well, I’ve made the decision. And now it’s like happening, right? And then you’re like, Okay, well, I used to make five figures a month doing writing, and now I’m making $300 a month is that and it’s like, right? Like, this seems like everything in my world is telling you this terrible



idea, actually. And so I was having this one day where I was just like, with this



ridiculous decision that I just made, like, what am I doing, you know, and not like, I quit every writing project to clear space, you know, that would be a whole different thing. It may have helped. It may not have helped, I don’t know. But I was having this one day where I’m just like, what are you doing? Right? And I like went outside and my husband was out there. And I was like, Did I make a huge mistake? Like, I feel like a failure? And like, it had been a month?



Been a long time, right? Like, I have no patience whatsoever. I’m just like, I’m a failure, because I’m not immediately this new thing I try. And my husband is like, No, no, you got to be patient,



right? You got to be patient. So I come inside. And I literally had received a message from my friend saying, like, hey, I want to book you for a reading. It was like the universe was like, Okay, stop being crazy. More work. Like you’re not you’re not a failure, just because you’re not like a like overnight sensation, basically. And so I was just like, that was like an example of the universe just kind of tapping me on the back and being like, okay, I can see you need a little extra support right now. But like, I don’t



know, I love it. And just circling back to like children and adults in that experience and evolution. It is like, it’s true. You know, I work with adults and career transitions all the time. And the thing that we do, is we’re so impatient. It’s like, we have this idea. Well, I’ve grown up and so I shouldn’t have to start from the beginning, even though I’m sure when you started your writing career. It wasn’t like one month in you were making five figures a month, right? Like, no way you You didn’t go in with any expectation of that. Somehow. This is like, Oh, I I shouldn’t have to start from the beginning, even though I’m kidding, right?



Totally. And like, even if I had tried to tell someone else that story out loud, like immediately, would have felt ridiculous to tell. So it’s like, you have no like, it’s like that complete disconnect between what you actually know and what you’re feeling when you’re like, scared and making a transition that is like, hard to explain to people.



You know, so yeah, yeah. I wonder if you have any stories of like you explaining the transition to someone like that. They’re just then don’t get it. Like at all? You know, honestly, I



feel like I had so many fears around that. Because one of the things that I did when I decided to start my own thing was I moved away from some of the agency work that I was doing. So I was working with two agencies, I went down to one. And it’s just like, I had this whole story in my mind, like, Okay, I’m going to lie



to them about what I’m doing, because I feel like almost embarrassing to explain to people like, which is so



silly and inauthentic. And like, I didn’t end up going that route. But like, I could totally have seen myself doing that. But it’s like, I’m telling to like 60 year old white guys that I’m going to explore my Tarot career and it’s so awkward, but it was it was really sweet. Like, they were just like, that’s super cool. Like, I hope that works out really well for you like and they you know, they were telling everyone about my business and like how excited they were and I was like, I had just totally built up the story in my head and I hadn’t given them any credit whatsoever for like, how they might react or like telling my parents like, Okay, I’m gonna start transitioning and doing this and they’ve been really supportive and although they probably talk amongst themselves about what a weirdo daughter said that to me, so I’m very grateful for that. But like, I find that like coming out on LinkedIn was like a little scary for me too. It’s like all these people who have known me as doing this, like, this career that people see as like serious and smart, and then going to something that a lot of people think is completely unserious and silly and like for people who aren’t intelligent somehow, you know. And so, that is always kind of like a scary thing when you’re in the professional world and trying to tell people like, Oh, hey, this is a real thing, you know, and I think if they experienced that, right, they wouldn’t feel that way. But like, there’s this perception that like, you’re not a smart or serious person, if you’re into Tarot. And I think that’s, that’s something that I’m trying to overcome with my business, too, is, you know, telling people that’s not



accurate at all. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. It is it is true, we can really stop ourselves by creating a story that other people will seem ml at the end of the day, compared to things right, but, but it can be painful, especially if you have a relationship with them and respect for them. Yeah, it can affect us. If they’re not supportive, but I love what you’re saying is like, give people a chance. Yeah. Like, you know,



and like, exactly what you’re saying to it’s like, you know, you, you tell people and you expect a certain thing and like you’re giving them no credit whatsoever. And it’s just like, those stories are really detrimental to us and like, like problems of our own creation and entirely. And it’s just like an interesting thing to kind of be in this phase where you’re, you know, you feel like you have to explain yourself. And like, on one hand, I’ve always been like, well, I don’t really care what you think about me and like, especially if I don’t respect you or anything like that, like, why would I care. But then I’m also like, completely shut down by the idea that someone might think I’m dumb, because this is what I want to do. So it’s like, so there is a level of caring, even though I’m not like actively feeling it. I’m like, I somehow still want that validation. And it’s like this weird mental game that you play with yourself about, like, well, I don’t actually care. But I also do



actually. I’m not fully understanding what’s going on for me, but it’s,



it’s not really a complex thing until you’re actually in it. And you’re like, so what do I really think? Do I not care? Or do I care? Or do I only care sometimes? Yeah, yeah.



Yeah, I don’t. I actually think that kind of pathological, like, literally not care. You know what I mean? Like, I know, that’s like, sometimes that’s the goal. And it’d be nice if we didn’t care and certain contexts, like we absolutely shouldn’t care. But But yeah, I think it’s, I don’t, I don’t actually aspire to that anymore. Like, oh, I might, I might care. But then what do I do with that input? You know? Is it? Is it going to stop me in my tracks? Am I going to use it as fuel? Or is it just, it’s just there? And it’s not going to impact my journey? No.



Yeah. Oh, totally. And I’m sure you like,



tell people that all the time during their transitions, too, because it really is like, you know, whether you care or not, right? It’s the reaction and like, the action that you take from that, that actually matters, you know, it’s like, if someone’s being really negative, then like, you cut them off, and like, that’s the action and then it’s over, then you don’t have to really like



care about whether they care or not, because they no longer impacting you. You know,



it’s kind of an interesting conundrum sometimes when, like, baby answer is pretty simple.



Yeah, well, I love what Rene Brown was about this, he was like, you know, it really like when, when you’re looking for input, don’t receive it from people who are not out there also taking risks. Like if they’re not actually living out their truth, then they’re not going to give you good quality. But outside of that, it might be you. There might be input that that is valuable. Even if you don’t like it at the time, it could be valuable. Or it could not apply to you. But at least if someone’s like out there in the game, following their intuition, right, then then there could be some value in their input. But outside of that, and there are lots of people have lost.



I mean, I do too, right like People are doing what they should be doing. But if I’m not out there taking part taking risk, my value my emphasis on your valuable. Right, right.



And you know, that’s



interesting to to, like, bring back that point of like, why as a tarot reader, right, it shouldn’t be your input because like, Who are you to say, you know, like, what really needs to be coming from, like the person that you’re reading for and like these higher energies, because, you know, really, at the end of the day, like, you know, I’m not an enlightened person. So who am I to really like, be the one giving advice, you know, I don’t always necessarily live my truth to the way that to the extent that I should, or that I feel like is actually authentic to me. And so it’s like that bad input needs to come from a trusted source, right? And like, there is no, no source better to trust than the one that kind of like, powers us all.



So, yeah. Well, what? What would you offer someone who is feeling like, okay, they’ve been on a one track, and now they’re thinking of going to the center feeling called to something else, that’s not really fulfilling them anymore? that’s attractive. What, you know, kind of, what would you offer them? Yeah,



so the biggest advice is that, you know, not to talk yourself out of it, you know, if this is something that’s kind of coming to you over and over again, there’s a reason why it’s still plaguing you after time, you know, you can’t always think your way out of a new path, right, just like you can’t talk yourself into a new path. But I would say to notice, too, if something continues to arise for you, that’s, that’s a good indicator that you’re being pulled that way, you know, and and I think it’s easy, like, I gave the example of me doing this, right, it’s easy to get deterred by like, the, the uphill ness of starting something new and just the battles you kind of have to, to fight in order to do something completely different, you know, some transitions are easier than others. But I think that the toughness of the transition isn’t always an indicator that you’re not on the right path. Sometimes it’s kind of creating the situation where you have to find that inner fortitude to be able to make that transition, and then stay the course after you’ve made the decision. But it’s funny, like, kind of along those lines, right? A lot of times what people ask me through Tarot, right is about their profession, right? Like, people are always kind of like, should I leave my job? Should I not? You know, and a lot of times, like, this is a conversation that they’ve had cyclically with themselves over and over and over again. And it’s like, you absolutely know the answer. And the cards are almost always going to confirm what you already know, right? You just need that external validation. So I mean, I think the biggest thing that people can do outside of you know, seeking out other advice, is just listen to what keeps coming up over and over again, for you and sitting back and saying, like, okay, whether I do this or not, why is this happening over and over again? Why is this coming up over and over again, right there, there’s some signal from the universe that keeps drawing your attention back to it. So if you can pay attention with an open heart, I think that’s going to give you your answer.



more of that, and that makes me think of another question, which is this. I know people often grapple with this like, okay, is, if I’m, if I’m embarking on something new and it’s feeling hard, then is, is that an indicator that just requires like me to just like, dig deep, inner fortitude? I love that phrase. Or is it a sign that that’s not the right direction? And so you touched on that, but I wonder if there’s some way you distinguish between those two things yourself? Yeah. So I think that



I think that any transition is a certain level of heart. So like that, that’s true. But I think that the difference between the obstacles that are created to kind of foster that inner fortitude are different from the obstacles that are trying to tell you to go a different way, based on whether or not you can handle them, you know, doesn’t just feel hard, but you are capable of overcoming these things, or have you reached a point where like, you’re going out against something and it feels like banging your head against the wall, it keeps arising over and over again, the same obstacle, you come up, you know, you’ve solved one thing. And then another thing arises, that’s basically the same, right? And you keep kind of encountering these walls over and over again. You know, I think that if you can handle the obstacles with ease, that’s usually an indicator that you’re going the right way, you just need to build up some tougher skin, right? But if you keep going up against obstacles, and they keep kind of throwing you back, and they keep kind of making you feel chaotic internally, that might be an indicator, you know that this is close to the right path, but not the right one, you know, it might be a slightly different direction. So it’s like that ease and being able to handle obstacles, I think is a big indicator of like, this is helping me versus this is me, creating a situation where I’m going to continue to bang my head against the wall and Leslie.



Yeah, yeah. I like that. That’s really helpful. I often invite people to imagine, let’s say, imagine yourself on the other side of that obstacle, and how does that feel? Because sometimes it’s like, that actually doesn’t feel good. Like, I don’t actually want to be there. So that’s like, that’s a guardrail. Like telling you to go and feel amazing, then that does two things like affirmation that you’re on the right track, and also motivation. keep on keepin on. Yes. Yeah.



I love that. I love that idea to have you’re like, Oh, I don’t actually necessarily want to solve this problem, because like, overcoming this obstacle feels gonna terrible. Yeah. Yeah, the only and we never think of obstacles that way. Right? We always think like, I’m gonna overcome the thing. And then it’s going to be like this victorious



thing, right? I’m gonna feel amazing. And then sometimes you get over the obstacle, and you’re like, I wish I had chosen the different path.



Yeah, yeah. I mean, all the time. People are like, Oh, I really should this or I should have that. Like, anytime I hear the word shed. I’m like, don’t you want that where you want to go? Let’s check on that. Before we strategize, right?



I know, because like, how often do you use a phrase should when it’s something that you want to do?



Never, like, I want to do this, I desire that. It’s not like, Oh, I should it’s always like followed with a well, too. It’s like, Oh,



you can almost hear



the sound effect is terrible. Yeah, but like you said, it really helps to have someone reflecting or some tool to reflect that back, we can hear that. Cuz often we miss that those things with tone within ourselves easy. So the mask especially is just a rough we’ve been in, you know, it’s so familiar. It’s hard to get some fresh perspective on. Yeah, so great. I love that you’re following your intuition and helping other people do that inviting magic into their lives? And, and, you know, we all need more of that we need more joy and magic in our everyday lives. Is there anything else you want to share with the folks who are listening? Yeah, I think I think maybe my



biggest goal and kind of going down this path now, like after having established a career for a long time, it’s just that I want people to see Tarot, not as completely separate from, you know, their work, from their relationships from anything. It’s like this beautiful tool to connect you deeper to all of those things. And just being open to that it’s going to open amazing doors to you, like you think about, you know, if anytime you came to one of those obstacles that we talked about in your career, right, and you have this tool to be able to kind of like see the circumstances a little bit more clearly. Like, of course, you wouldn’t shut the door on that tool, right? If you’re asking other people or you’re seeking advice for reason, right? Taro is a way to respond to those calls for advice or those calls for input. And so I see it as this really beautiful tool that could be used in the workplace, even just to understand relationships better like you have a challenging coworker Taro can tell you what’s going on for that person as well as what’s going on for you where the conflict is, it’s like it kind of opens up this world for people if they can kind of get invited in order to allow someone else to show them kind of how that works. So I think that my biggest goal is really to make it less of this like woowoo ethereal thing that is only for certain The people and make it kind of this thing that like people use when they need some help, you know, they’re seeking out advice from you blue and like other people in their lives. And it’s like you need those those people, right? You need those people too. But you can’t ask, they can’t pay you every time they have a little tiny question, right? That like a tool that they can use to kind of supplement those big important sessions that they have with their business coach, or with their relationship coach or their therapists. You know, it’s, it’s this beautiful tool that like puts you back in the seat of power. So I think that wherever I go, like, and however much I make per month, and how little and insignificant appeals compared to, you know, whatever, like all those like, kind of meters of success, whether I’m meeting them or not, it’s like, that continues to be my why. And that continues to push me along the path and overcome the obstacles and allow those obstacles to be approached with ease. It’s like having that wise,



is quintessential to that process. Yeah. So much wisdom. Thank you so much, probably for sharing your journey, your insight, and people are wanting to know more about you and about your Oh, where where an internet world? Can they find you? Sure, yeah,



so they can find me at cup of sugar agency.com. That is probably the best way to find me, you can sign up for my newsletter. I’m also on Instagram at Katy flows. And that’s where I do kind of some pick a card tarot readings and readings that are really accessible for everyone. So if there’s any interest in Tarot at all, that’s probably the place to see those things. But thank you so much for having me on. And this was such a fun conversation.



So I appreciate the time. Oh, good. Yeah. And we’ll have, we’ll have some show notes and links to where you can find more currently a path of their own. Thank you so much. Thank you.



here and I wonder no fun. For me. I had so much fun.



I feel like I could chat with you all the time, though. And I felt that way after our first conversation too.



So nice to connect. So I wonder if we could record another like 10 minutes or so about? You have any thoughts about what what we could talk about? Or? This there’s anything you did? I didn’t ask you about as you were thinking about today? No, I thought that the questions really



flowed pretty naturally. So I appreciate that. I would love to chat about something that like I feel like we can both kind of give our alternative perspectives from like we’ve done throughout the episode, right? Like, we’re talking about, like, overcoming obstacles through like business coaching work, and I can talk about it through Tarot, but some kind of topic that’s similar in that way. What is something that you, you kind of discuss with clients all the time around, like a topic that comes up over and over again? I’m sure everyone’s different, but maybe some common themes.



Yeah. I mean, I was just teaching about money today. That’s on my mind. I mean, that’s always in the mix. You know, you mentioned it to like, just this. Yeah, I can. When people are changing careers, or evolving their business or their career, in some ways, like, money is a concern that universally arises. Right? with how, how’s this gonna work? Do I Do I jump all in? Or do I transition out tonight? You know, can I and it’s, there’s no universal answer to any of those. Want to talk about money? What’s been coming up for you in session?



Yeah, for me, it’s been a lot of like, do I do I change my career like we talked about and then it’s a lot of like relationships I find that people really like one is want to know what’s going on in a situation that like they can’t see clearly. And that’s kind of been kind of things. So I think like, maybe that’s a good topic like that encompasses both money and relationships and everything, which is just, you know, how do you know if you’re seeing stuff clearly Or not? And how can you go about like, finding the reality of the situation?



Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, me, I feel like there’s something in there about.



Like when other people are involved, you know, like, okay, that’s great. I’m doing my own thing. I’m testing myself and got my own tools now, like, cool, but what about my partner? What about my colleagues? What about my children? What about like? Yeah, what you know? Yeah. I could



you actually asked me in our first call about, you know, like, supportiveness of partners when you make a transition, like that would be a good topic



to talk about to know. Yeah. Okay. was the one I really have to watch the clock. So what? I have a feeling you’re not, we could just record like three more hour long episodes. We will do it again. Yeah, yeah. You’re now around. Okay.



Alright, I’m back with Harley. And we just were talking about how we had so much fun recording that full episode. So if you haven’t listened to it yet, I highly encourage it. Carly is the founder of sugar. And she specializes in bringing everyday magic, f&b people, and primarily here in Toronto. So one of the things we noticed we we really were dishing on in our first episode was just our perspective on similar things. So we tend to work with people who are making good choices in their lives and looking for guidance around that. So I do that in phone coaching, probably even Tarot, and I, you know, we just thought we make this a little bit more so interesting to hear the overlap and the different ways that we approach those things. So I think it’s very complementary and to dig in a little bit more. So currently, we’re just sharing something about what’s coming up for you, your clients, like, something will be asked about which you didn’t get to. Really the topic before. Yeah, so



one of the things that I would say to, you know, should I change my career, one of the big things that people ask about are, you know, relationships or situations in which they can’t see clearly, because that’s primarily the best time to kind of approach someone with Tarot, right? You can, you know, pull cards for yourself, if you’re familiar with the deck, but there are always things that we can’t see clearly in our own lives, we know we just have blockages around them. And so that’s when you know, you’re seeking out this outside information, you know, they’re seeking out a business coach, or they’re seeking out a tarot reader, or they’re seeking out, you know, some sort of clarifying force for them. And so it’s, it’s always really kind of a vulnerable place to be to, like, let someone into this, you know, this world that you’re like, I know, I need to do something, but I just cannot see the circumstances clearly. And I have those things, right. And



I think everyone does. So it’s, it’s like this ability to put yourself out there with people



that I super admire, being a person who tends to be closed off and not trust anyone. I’m always, like, so profoundly touched by the trust people play in me. And so it’s like, I don’t know, it’s like a special thing, right? You’ve probably experienced that all the time.



To honor and I tell people that all the time. And I think they’re like, really? are you just saying, like, I do it every time, especially a brand new person, you know, reaches out to me, they saw a post or they’ve heard this podcast or they, you know, I’m just like, oh, it is such an art. Like, I don’t take that lightly. That trust that, that vulnerability base that they’re in and, and honestly, like, if I’m not the right guide, I’m gonna help them find who is because that is such a vulnerable space. And I know not all practitioners have the right practice or not all the tools are the right tools. And luckily, there’s so many that we don’t have to settle for the one that doesn’t feel right. So yeah, so I’m, I’m so curious, when we talked a lot about this inner guidance, this intuition that we all have, and that Taro can really be supportive of that help us be more clearly helped validate, maybe those hits that we’re getting from the universe or from god that was kind of, we’re kind of scared of or avoiding something. To do like help us really see that. But what happens when we’re not the only ones involved in the decision? Or we’re not, you know, so we’re in a relationship, marriage or children, or we’re caretaking a parent or something like that, where our choices are going to impact them. What do you do when people come to you with that kind of situation? Help them? Yeah, absolutely.



So in those circumstances, I will almost always pull a spread, I’ll pull cards for the person who’s asking, I’ll pull cards for, you know, the person who is also involved. For example, like, if someone comes to me and says, You know, I really want to make this switch, but I’m worried about how it’s going to impact my partner, right, I’ll pull cards for them, currently, as well as future then I’ll pull cards for their partner and a future partner. And then, you know, in the center, a lot of times, it’ll be like, okay, the present the future, you know, what are the circumstances around it? And then, you know, as I turn the cards over and see kind of what’s there, sometimes I’ll add some clarifying stuff. But it’s really an amazing kind of overarching tool to be able to say, like, okay, I can only really see myself, right. And so even if I know my partner very intimately, I can’t always know what’s going on behind the scenes, or how these decisions will make an impact. And that’s kind of a way for me to say like, Okay, well, here’s what I’m seeing is going on for your partner. And this is how I’m going to see them, you know, coping or dealing with a change in the future, you know, whether they would prefer things to the same or whether they’re equipped to kind of handle the changes that you’re, you’re equipped to handle. And it’s always really fraught to with because I work with a lot of women. And like for women, especially like, sometimes we take on this, this, like, this burden that, like no one asked us to take on for the other person, right? Like, our partner isn’t always saying, like, change things. For me, you’re like, consider me and in my head, your decision, right, but we have put it on ourselves to, like, think that they need to be, you know, and not to say like, oh, make a ton of decisions without your partner. But like, there’s this additional pressure that like, we need to think about everyone else in the situation. And like, sometimes the cards are, like, do do what you want girl be fine. This is not a problem for them. It’s only like a problem that you you know, you’re worried about, which is significant, too. But you know, like, you can’t necessarily make that the whole conversation. So



yeah, yeah, it is. I think that’s true and a lot of decision making from I work with a lot of women too. And it is it does seem like we have to be reminded on time that we’re on the priority list. You know it for who to take into account for a decision? Yeah, and it is, we could have a whole conversation around how that is. But generally speaking, if we’re raised with girls and women in the Western world, wow, that’s real. That’s the thing we’re trained to not like to put everyone else first, essentially. So, yeah, that’s really great. I love that, like, you’re able to facilitate that. Bring in the perspective of another person who’s going to be impacted and just just to have more insight. And, yeah, so that’s interesting. I, I don’t my tools are not that I don’t tap into other but but I find that people like if, if it’s a concern enough, then usually there’s a closeness enough and understanding enough that I’ll explore with my clients around, well, what kinds of things like well, what what do you think they might say? Or what would you like to say? Or what would you like to ask for? What are you open to? What do you not open to in that dialog, and that can help just coming in already with some self awareness. And I’ve also done a lot of thinking a lot of communication classes. So sometimes, I’ll get into like a little bit on my teacher hat, sensitive a little, you know, like, here’s some, here’s some communication basics. Keep in mind, because it you know, especially if the stakes feel really high, we can forget our basic tools you can forget to come with compassion, to listen to, you know, when looking to hold a conversation and, and also remembering that we can stand in our truth and have our boundaries while loving and respecting the person Both things are entirely possible. And, and ideally. Yeah,



yeah. And it’s interesting to like, sometimes it’s just like, if you’re coming into so much resistance with your partner or whomever it is, like constantly, it’s like, it might be good to just reassess that relationship overall, like, is that really, where you want to be constantly fighting for your truth with someone that you care about? You know, and like, I’m not saying like, oh, cut off everyone who disagrees with you. But like, you know, when you constantly we talked about in the full episode, right? Like those obstacles that you know, you encounter from time to time. But if you’re constantly banging your head against the wall with the obstacle with your partner, or someone that you care about, like, what does that say? Right? It’s kind of similar advice,



right? Like, maybe this is not what it is what it should be, you know, for you.



Or maybe it’s run its course, right? Like, not all relationships are meant to be forever, for a reason. They’re supposed to come into our lives and change us and teach us things in certain ways. We teach people they teach us and then sometimes it’s like, it’s best to go our own way, because we’re not on the same path anymore. But, you know, we like, you know, a lot of times there’s a lot invested. So it’s not easy to say like, Okay, let’s go our own separate ways. But sometimes that’s where the message from the universe is guiding us like it might be time to cut ties or change this relationship. conversation. I have two.



Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I just, I was reminded recently, I show you number two, Natalie Miller has an amazing podcast, by the way. You want to check it out. And she was just talking about how really like, life is a series of decisions. I just She didn’t say it the way I’m saying it. But this is my trend is that life is a series of decisions. And we actually never know which ones are the big ones. So it might be that it feels big. But really, we’re just on the cusp of the result of a series of decisions we’ve already made. And so it’s just like, it’s just the next one. And, and on top of that no decision is, or rarely is a decision for a minute. There might be some decisions absolutely wait until like something permanent. But most of our life decisions, which we make a ton of them throughout our lives are, you know, we don’t there is not a trajectory that’s forever, or, or like inevitable. Yeah.



And that is so comforting, right? Like, a lot of times, it’s like, we just need someone to remind us that like, you know, this isn’t necessarily going to impact our lives for the next decade, right? It’s just a trip made right now, it’s so rare that like you’ve done something so permanent, that you can never go back out, right. Like, becoming a tarot reader did not mean that I lost my ability to write whatsoever, right? Like, I can make that transition back if I want, you know, I can really trace my steps backwards. But it’s, you know, but it feels like it is the end all be all, because we have a lot of times built it up so much in our mind, right? When we talk about like the way we think other people will react to our decisions to the same thing. It’s like, well, what story I’ve created for myself, and my mind is, like, very intense. And that’s not a tense at all, or, you know, I thought it wouldn’t be a big deal. And it’s a huge deal. So yeah, we’re just not good judges sometimes.



Yeah, yeah. And I think the more it feels like things are at stake, like the narrower our vision become, and so really can’t tell like, what, where, what the possibilities on the other side are. And so that’s where it’s really helpful to get that input. Like someone, like you said before about someone who doesn’t have skin in the game, or can access can have an access point that outside of all of that all the human experience of it. And so it is, yeah, it is so helpful to have that perspective. And yeah, and remember that we’re, we’re capable of making these decisions. I love what you said, and follow up with them too about it. All the answers are actually within us. And so anything that we’re doing it, you know, I think anything that’s healing, anything that’s supportive and helpful, is just enhancing that. Yeah,



yeah. Like being able to connect with yourself deep enough to trust the wisdom that comes from you naturally. That’s a place of power. And I think a lot of us kind of undercut her on power because it’s like, almost scary to be fully in it and like have so much wisdom and knowledge and just be able to like guide ourselves. It’s like, wow.



Like, what would I do with all that amazing this? Like? yourself? guys got a bit? Yeah, yeah. And we don’t actually, we don’t really live in a world that works that or isn’t equipped for that or you know, I think we are co creating that world for sure. But it hasn’t arrived. So yeah, it can be, it can be scary enough. That’s real. And it’s okay. To feel all the feelings along the way, for sure. Oh, good. Yeah, we could just probably just stay on all day, I think. So fun. And I just want to remind people where they can find you and we’ll have all these links on their own calm Of course, but just in case you’re not going to that website or for whatever reason. You want to say out loud. Here you can find



me thank you again for having me. This has been so fun, but people can find me at cup of sugar agency.com or on Instagram at Kp flows. And Instagram is where you’ll find my little Taro videos if you’re interested as kind of an entry point. So yeah, hope to see some of your listeners around them. And it’s just been such a joy to be able to do this. Thank you. Thank you so much.